Sunday, October 25, 2015

24th October: Day 4: Satapada, Chilika Lake

Day 4 was planned to be a rest day at the Chilika lake in Odisha.

Friendly contacts who worked with an NG0 in the Chilika area had made all the arrangements - they had booked our stay at the OTDC hotel in Satpada and 2 of them had made themselves available to show us around.

The time at Satapada was definitely one of the highlights of the trip and something the kids will remember for a long time.

Since this is a travel blog I must write a little about the OTDC hotel in Satapada.This is the only hotel in this tourist town and has the potential to be a really special place.Instead, the facilities are quite run down and shabby. In our room, the flush tank, geyser and AC were not working, but the hotel staff made arrangements to get hot water for us from the next room.

We, however, had a great time together . The Chilika lake is one of the largest saltwater lakes in the world.We did a 3 hour boat trip, saw flying/ hopping fish and the famous Irrawady dolphins, and travelled to an "island" called Rajahamsa which has saltwater lake on one side and the Bay of Bengal on the other. As you can imagine, we had a great time. One disappointment was that we were a little early to see the migratory birds. The birding season begins once temperatures drop - from November to February.

Picking a boat 
All aboard!
On the Chilka Lake
Fruit Juice never tasted better!
Nature study
Drawing cormorants sitting on poles
Fishing poles on the Chilika Lake
The Rajahamsa beach, Chilika
The Rajahamsa beach, Chilika
The Rajahamsa beach, Chilika
The Rajahamsa beach, Chilika
Tired, but happy!
Seabreeze in our face
Trying to spot birds

As recommended by one of our friends on FB, we had ordered seafood at one of the beach-side shacks before leaving in the morning, and it was such a delight to return to a piping hot and tasty meal.

We slept well in the afternoon, had another lakeside picnic in the evening and another great seafood meal for dinner.

All in all, a good restful break of journey in an excellent location - a great decision all around.

Saturday, October 24, 2015

23rd October: Day 3: Vizag to Satapada, Chilika Lake


We had spent the night in Havilah's home in Vizag, and woke up early, feeling rested and refreshed. After packing our stuff in the car, and saying our goodbyes, we were discussing which would be the best route out of the city, when, quite impulsively, Havilah offered to show us the way on her two-wheeler.

She did. Straight to the Vizag beach! We had not realised her home was so close to the Beach! And what fun we had!

The Vizag beach is one of the more beautiful beaches I have seen. As we drove down the Beach road, the sight of Kailash Hill sloping down gently into the sea is one that will remain with us as a lasting memory of Vizag.

Early morning at the Vizag Beach 

A retired submarine at the Vizag beach

Residual damage after last year's cyclone

At 6am, the road had been closed to vehicles and was full of early morning walkers and joggers . We enjoyed looking at a retired submarine . We could see some of the residual effects of last year's cyclone.  We were told that the sea level in Vizag is rising every year, which has led subsequently to some great conversations with the children on global warming.

So, all in all, a tremendous experience.  Thanks, Havilah, for this great early morning surprise!

The drive to Behrampur was very good. Excellent roads. A great picnic - breakfast off the highway just beyond Vijaynagaram, beside a brook where we even found a water - snake. We reached Behramapur by 12.30pm.

Early morning dew on the grass

We actually found a water-snake at our breakfast stop


Breakfast stop somewhere between Vizag and the Orissa border



In Behrampur, we were happy to be able to visit Love the One, an NGO started by Catherine Morris and Mary Cusack, two British paediatricians who have been working in India with slum children for the last 5 years or so. They had spoken at Shiloh 2014, and it was a real blessing to be able to visit and see for ourselves what they were doing

Love the One strikes me as a very comprehensive attempt to work with these disadvantaged  children, one child at a time. We were shown around by Cat Morris, who told us the story of LTO, and a few of the children they have been working with. We saw the EPIC centre (early paediatric intervention centre), the new school that has been started, the small clinic,  the child sponsorship program and heard about the hub and spoke model that is developing. Mary was away in Hyderabad with 6 children needing major cardiac surgery.
Fun in Love the One, Behrampur. Announcing the Spot the Dheeraj contest!

Spotted on the wall in Love the One, Behrampur

Cat Morris and the EPIC centre staff

 We visited their home, and were introduced to their dogs, Molly, Daisy and Asha, and cat, Gizmo, whose stories I have been following on Facebook. It was inspiring to hear of all that is happening.  Please look them up on Facebook and have a look at their website. I think they would be really interested in building up a pool of committed Indian healthcare professionals, educators, and child welfare activists who could act as resource persons, and help them with locally relevant ideas, suggestions and staff training programs from time to time.

Hard at work on the drive: AH45
Hard at work on the drive: AH45
Hard at work on the drive: AH45
When the time came to leave for Chilika, we found an unexpected problem had cropped up. We had planned to use the ferry to get us and our car to Satapada, but found there is no ferry after 4.30pm. Useful information for our next road trip!  Anyway, to cut the long story short, we took the longer route around Chilika Lake to Puri, and from there to Satapada,  which included a disastrous shortcut suggested by Google Maps as a bypass to Puri (the road had not yet been completed, and was therefore in terrible condition. To make matters worse, this segment of the trip was made in pitch darkness). We finally reached our destination by about 8.30pm,  had a quick dinner, and I crashed out as soon as my head hit the pillow.

Friday, October 23, 2015

22nd October: Day 2: Vuyyuru to Vizag

7.45am

David's animals and organic vegetable garden.


11.08pm

Day 2, and almost 950km completed. Everything so far has exceeded expectations. Thanks be to God

After a good breakfast at Vuyyuru, we tried to avoid meeting Mr Modi by taking a somewhat circuitous route from Vuyyuru to Hanuman Junction (a town on the National Highway), via Gudivada. This road was bad in stretches, and even the NH seemed somewhat poorly maintained until Rajahmundry. Also, we could hardly find picnic spots which had not been spoilt with plastic papers and waste, and human and animal excreta. We were left feeling saddened at how this beautiful country of ours has been spoiled by human beings. It seemed to me to be quite symbolic of the lack of 'Shalom' we have been thinking together about over the past few months....of how human beings have messed up this beautiful world that was entrusted to our care.

Fellow travellers on AH45!
Watching buffalo, goat, and herdsman bathe together and wanting to join in the fun
After lunch and Rajahmundry, things started to look better. I think the stretch of highway between Rajahmundry and Vizag must be one of the most beautiful drives I have ever made, and I thoroughly enjoyed this part of the journey. We finally reached Vizag by about 4.30pm.

A large statue of Swami Vivekananda atop a hill
Beautiful India!

We first went to the home of one of our new friends, who has decided to move with his family to the Arukku valley to work among the tribals there. They plan to start a new school there. Ashita and Arpita engaged this couple in a freewheeling and animated discussion on education, homeschooling, choice of language medium (vernacular vs English/ Hindi), community ownership of the school, documentation and preservation of some aspects of local culture, promotion of Health, Shalom and abundant life (and not just treatment of symptoms) and so on. It was a great conversation.

We have just had another fabulous dinner with Havilah and family ( Havilah is my batch mate and foster sister) and James Adams and family (Arpita's batchmate). What a privilege it has been to meet and be hosted by these friends on this journey!
Dinner with Havilah, James and their families

Tomorrow we enter Odisha. Sounds like that is going to be great fun as well.

Thursday, October 22, 2015

21st October: Day 1: Vellore to Vuyyuru

7.26 am:

Finally on the way. We have just left Bagayam.

Mixed emotions at this time. More than 2 hours late, but it was worth the good sleep, good packing and farewells all around. Please keep us in prayers.

9.23am:

Breakfast stop between Chittoor and Tirupati






1.44pm:


Lunchtime :)



2:07 PM: Thanks, everyone. Its been great fun so far. Mostly good roads. We're doing well. Thanks for your prayers


The kids have finished lunch and gone exploring

Thanks Anu and Vinay Oommen for the packed breakfast and lunch that has helped us have these great picnics




6.59pm:

We have just had a great time with Sanjay (my MBBS classmate ) and family in Vijayawada. Now we are going to Vuyyuru to meet David (another classmate). We will be staying with them tonight. Thanks everyone for your prayers, love and concern.


12.17am

Yes! We are now at the CBM Bethel hospital, Vuyyuru. We realised when we reached that today is David's daughter's 4th birthday. He embarrassed us by asking the hospital staff to garland us, amd asking me to say something. Revenge for all those late night GBs in hostel. We then had a great dinner with the entire hospital staff. Somewhat like the Christmas dinners in many mission hospitals.

This hospital was almost closed down until David and Sheba moved here about 2 years ago. It has now turned around. Income has multiplied almost ten-fold and much of the hospital has been renovated. David is a paediatrician but does everything. Sheba is an OGcian. Do keep them in prayers. Both trained in Vellore.

We are going to have to slightly change our route because Modi is arriving in Vijayawada tomorrow to inaugurate Amaravathi, the new capital of Andhra. Sounds like another fun day tomorrow

Tuesday, October 20, 2015

The journey begins.....

Thanks, everyone. Our luggage was sent yesterday, and we are using today to prepare for the trip which will start early tomorrow morning. Do keep us in prayer. I will try and post updates from time to time, so please keep sending in tips about the way ahead.

Saturday, October 17, 2015

Transition Time! and Roadtrip from Vellore to Madhepura

It's TRANSITION TIME for my family as we move from Vellore, (where we have enjoyed some of the best years of our lives so far), to rural Bihar (where we hope to discover, as one of my uncles used to say, that the 'best is yet to come'!)

In Bihar, we will be based as a family in the EHA hospital at Madhepura where I will be working for the latter half of every month. In addition, during the first half of every month, I will travel to Patna, to work with an NGO that has been tasked with the responsibility to help the state of Bihar upgrade, transform and develop the government healthcare delivery system. As you can imagine, exciting and challenging times are ahead.

Our adventure begins early next week. After sending our packed home away by truck on Monday, we plan to begin the long drive from Vellore to Bihar as a family.

This is the route we are planning to take. (timings according to Google Maps)

Day 1: 21st: Vellore to Vuyyuru via Tirupati, Nellore, Guntur and Vijayawada. (544 km. approx 9 hrs 30 min) We will probable stay at the Christian hospital in Vuyyuru with my classmate David Suvarna Raju

Day 2: 22nd: Vuyyuru to Vizag via Elluru, Rajahmundry, and Annavaram. (346 km. approx 6 hrs 20 min) We have not yet decided on where to stay in Vizag, but we know a couple there who want to talk to us about homeschooling.

Day 3: 23rd. Vizag to Chilika Lake via Behramapur (368 km. 7 hrs) (we look forward to visiting Mary Cusack and Cat Morris at Love the One, in Behrampur and then move to Satapada in Chilika)

Day 4: 24th: Spend the day at Chilika Lake, bird watching and seeing the Irrawady dolphins.

Day 5: 25th. Satapada to Kharagpur, via Puri, Bhubaneshwar, Cuttack and Balasore. (442 km, 7hrs 45min)

Day 6: 26th. Kharagpur to Farakka, via Howrah, Burdwan, and Khargram. (425 km. 8hrs 45min) We will most probably stay in Farakka

Day 7: 27th. Farakka to Madhepura via Maldah, Raiganj and Dalkhola. (267 km, 6hrs)

We have no experience in doing this sort of cross country road trip before. So here's my request: Do any of you have suggestions for places to visit, or things to do, or routes to take (or avoid) or ways to keep three energetic kids entertained on a loong road trip? Please do feel free to chip in and help us make this trip an absolutely memorable one for them. And above all, please keep our family in prayer for this trip and the changes ahead.

Monday, November 17, 2014

Grace and......weakness?

This is the text of a message I gave recently at the OPTSA thanksgiving service in CMC, Vellore. The text for this message was from 2 Cor 12:9. 

"But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

OPTSA Thanksgiving service

Thank you, OPTSA, for inviting me to speak at this celebration and thanksgiving service. Thank you for the very moving and meaningful time of singing and praise and worship.

The beautiful theme that you have chosen and asked me to speak on today is from the well known and loved passage in 2 Cor 12:9, “My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness”. I am sure this verse is a favourite verse for many of us seated here. This verse has encouraged and comforted and blessed me many times, in different circumstances over the years. I pray that as we reflect together on this passage this evening, God may use His word to minister to each of us according to our varied needs, accomplishing His purposes in our lives. Let's pray:


Father, thank you for the opportunity to gather together like this around Your Word. We thank You that You are here, as You have promised, to meet with each of us. You know our hearts better than anyone else. Speak to each of us according to our own needs. May Your power be made perfect in my weakness today. Let Your word to us come with clarity and authority, accomplishing Your purposes, and glorifying Your Name. In Jesus' Name we pray, Amen.


Grace and....... Weakness?

Let me begin with a little background to this passage. There was a little rebellion in the Corinthian church. A group of people were questioning Paul's authority. They said he had no right to speak the way he did. “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is weak and his speech is of no account." they said. They felt Paul was projecting himself to be a much greater person than he really was.

And so, Paul finds himself, unexpectedly, having to defend himself to a church he himself founded. He defends his apostleship, pointing out the various 'signs of the apostle' that had taken place while he was with them. He is forced to boast of the various difficulties and hardships he has gone through for the sake of the Gospel. He defends the fact that he never took money from them, but rather preached the gospel to them faithfully without depending on them to meet his needs.

And finally, in the passage we have heard today, Paul, uncomfortably, talks, in the third person,  about one of the most extra-ordinary supernatural experiences he had, when he had been 'caught up into the third heaven, into Paradise', where he heard 'inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak'. Paul was an ordinary human being, like you and me, and just as we are tempted to think we are special and super-spiritual because of experiences we go through, or insights we get from God's word, or our reputation before others as a religious person, or people appreciating us for being a blessing to them, perhaps Paul too was tempted to think he was something special.

He writes that God, to protect him from spiritual pride, instead, allowed him to have a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment him daily, and keep him from getting puffed up, but help him instead to live in daily, continuous, uncomfortable dependence on God.

What this thorn in the flesh really was was probably clear to the original readers of Paul's letter (which is why some of them despised Paul, and looked down on him), but to us, looking back almost 21 centuries later, it is hard to imagine what this might have been.

Perhaps this was some physical disability or chronic illness. Tradition tells us that Paul was probably quite blind, which is why he dictated most of his epistles to others who wrote them down. In the book of Galatians, Paul writes that there were people in the church at Galatia who would have gladly plucked out their own eyes and given them to Paul. When brought one day before the court for trial before his imprisonment, we read that Paul accidentally cursed the High Priest, not recognising who he was, and apologised when he realised what he had done.

Perhaps the 'thorn in the flesh' was a difficult, unsolvable situation, like a troublesome co-worker, or family member, or some other similar situation for which Paul did not have any solution in sight.

Whatever it was, Paul prayed fervently three times that it should be removed from his life. Instead, God allowed this unhappy situation to remain unchanged, saying, instead, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

In other words, it is good for you to remain weak in this way. It is good for you to experience this persistent, unresolved, uncomfortable situation. It is good for you to be humbled by what you are going through. In this way, you will be able to experience My Grace. In exchange, you can experience My Power made perfect, in spite of your own weakness and difficulty. This way of painful, daily weakness that results in dependence on Me, is far better than being able to manage everything well on your own.

Now, what type of crazy logic is this? 

What is this Grace? And why does Paul rejoice in this, saying that he would now 'boast in his weakness'!?

In today's world, we are taught to value Strength, Confidence, Independence, Self-esteem. We honour “self-made” people. We appreciate those who are able to cope with life, those who do not need any help, who can manage by themselves.

And so we all try to sort out our own problems, become increasingly independent of others and of God, and live life on our own terms. We'd like to get what we deserve. We don't need any favours.

And so the concept of Grace is foreign to us. “Grace”: Getting what we do not deserve, making up for our short-comings and weaknesses.

We think that Grace is for the weaklings, who need extra help.

We'd love to know we passed our exams because of our own hard work and intelligence.  It's not fair that somebody could goof off the whole year, fail the exam, and then be passed with Grace-marks.

It's not fair that somebody could miss all the deadlines that we have been so careful to observe, and then still be able to submit his application during a grace-period.

Grace: Undeserved, unfair favours.

And yet, this idea of Grace is so Central to the Bible. Grace is the way God works. Grace is the only way we can survive. The Bible is called the “Word of His Grace” (Acts 20:32), the Gospel is called the “Good news of God's Grace” (Acts 20:24) and God Himself is called 'The God of All Grace” (1 Pet 5:10) and the “Spirit of Grace” (Heb 10:29).

The God of the Bible seems to enjoy being known as a gracious God, lavishing goodness on us, treating us far better than we deserve.

For example, think of God's response to the problem of our sin. On the one hand, He is a Holy God who hates the sin we commit everyday. On the other hand, He loves us so much. We are His precious, beloved creation, and He longs to be related to us. However, we are hopeless sinners, who have sinned so much from the time we were born. We deserve to be destroyed for all that we have done, and there is absolutely nothing we can do to save ourselves. God's solution?

Jesus.

Who stepped into our world, lived a perfect, blameless, sinless life, and then took our punishment, dying as a sacrifice in our place. Now we can be saved, and restored to a wonderful relationship with a Holy God who loves us passionately. Not because of anything we have done, but as a free gift because of what God does for us. He has done for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Grace. Unmerited Favour. But bought at a great price by the death of Jesus on the cross.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:10).

The Thief dying beside Jesus. Saved by Amazing Grace (via)
And, as an example, we read of the criminal being crucified next to Jesus. A rebellious murderer, he was getting what he deserved. He had not done a single thing that could qualify him for paradise. And then, a few minutes before he dies, he has the audacious temerity to ask, “Lord, remember me when you come into Your Kingdom.” And Poof, he is forgiven! Just like that! Without having done a single good deed. “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise”. The first man to enter paradise with the crucified Saviour? A convicted murderer!

What Amazing Grace!

But it is very humbling to accept such an offer of undeserved grace! We would like to think that we can do and should do something to deserve this. How can a criminal on the cross be forgiven like this? That's unfair.

Worse still, do you mean that all the good things I have done count for nothing? That God does not save me because of my past record. That He puts me on the same level as the murderers and prostitutes. Of course, I done a few wrong things from time to time, but, on the whole, my life has been reasonably good. Surely I deserve to be saved. I don't need any free gifts.

No wonder the elder son (in the parable of the Prodigal), and the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus' day and the religious people of our own times find this upsetting, while the tax collectors and prostitutes and drunkards flock towards this God who offers them the Good news of Grace. Undeserved Favour. This sounds scandalous (as Philip Yancey writes) but it's true!

My friends, if you have been trying hard to please God, to sort out the mess in your lives, to tidy up and make yourself a little more presentable to Him, let me tell you the good news. You don't need to. He loves you as you are. He has already paid the terrible price, and longs to lavish His grace on you.

He taught “Those who are well don't need a physician, but those who are sick do. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32). In other words, just as it is crazy to expect our patients to sort out their medical problems before they come to our hospital, it is equally crazy to think God wants you to come to Him after cleaning up a little.

Come as you are, with all your unsorted-out mess. The Good news of Grace is that it is always sufficient. 


Philip Yancey, in his classic “What's so Amazing about Grace” tells the story of (I quote) a “British conference on comparative religions, where experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for some time until C.S. Lewis wandered into the room.

“What’s the rumpus about?” he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity’s unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, “Oh, that’s easy. It’s grace.”
After some discussion, the conferees had to agree. The notion of God’s love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and Muslim code of law—each of these offers a way to earn approval. Only Christianity dares to make God’s love unconditional.”
Isn't that amazing?
No wonder Jesus taught that very few would find the narrow gate that leads to life. The Gate is not narrow because it is too difficult. The gate is narrow because it is so easy to be saved that it seems almost too good to be true. Therefore this message of grace is rejected. We would like to be saved, instead, because of something good we have done! We would like to earn salvation, instead of receiving this as a gift! May God help us to find the humility to accept this free gift of grace and forgiveness that He wants to lavish on us.
And then, as Jesus taught, this narrow gate leads to a narrow way, that leads to Life. How often we think we can come to God when we are 'good' and everything is under control. When we have been able to have a regular quiet time with Him in the morning, or been able to go to church. However, when things are not going well, and when we have fallen into sin, we are afraid to return to God, who really is the only person who can help us. Why not, rather, walk on the narrow way of accepting grace as a gift everyday? This is the counter-cultural way of embracing our weakness, as Paul learnt, and living in dependence on God who continues to freely give us Grace that is sufficient, and power in the midst of our weakness. It is when we humbly accept our inability to meet God's high standards, and to live lives that are pleasing to Him, that He  enables us to find the strength and resources to live and work for Him.
It really is no coincidence that the words Grace and Humility, Power and weakness, are often found together, just as in our text. “My Power is perfected in weakness”.
For example, God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble 1 Pet 5:5
Jesus began His sermon on the Mount by teaching, Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5.3). In her song, the Magnificat, Mary the mother of Jesus sang, “He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away.” (Luke 1:53).
In other words, God is looking to shower grace on us, and give us all the resources and power we need to live for Him. Unfortunately, so many of us are so rich, and full, and so confident of our own abilities, that we are unable to receive the many good things God has in store for us.
How sad! Why not rather, like Paul, glory in our weakness and inability, and receive in exchange the wonderful free gift of God's grace and power and enabling?
Even Jesus, the only One who ever lived a perfect life, seemed to continuously embrace His humanity, talking always of His refusal to be strong and independent and to do things in His own strength, and choosing instead to live in dependence on God. Just listen to what He spoke of Himself in the sermons which are recorded in John chapters 5 – 8.
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. John 5:19
I can do nothing on my own.John 5:30
I live because of the Father John 6:57
My teaching is not mine, but His who sent Me. John 7:16
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me John 8:15-16
I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. John 8:28
I always do the things that are pleasing to him. John 8:29
I do not seek my own glory John 8:50
and so on.
Just think. If even Jesus lived in such a humble everyday dependence on the Father while on earth, should we not also choose to go this way? Perhaps this is the daily dying of Jesus that is referred to in 2 Cor 4:10 “Always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” When we also live in similar weak dependence on the Father, we may also be able to display Jesus' character and life in our everyday situations. We too will be able to experience His Grace which is sufficient for us, and His power which is made perfect in our weakness.
The narrow way that leads to life is not the way of increasing expertise, and strength, and ability, but rather the way of increasing awareness of our need, and increasing dependence on the Father for grace and strength and enabling.
May God open our eyes to realise that we are actually incapable of living lives that please Him and bring Him glory! May our lives be characterised by deep poverty of spirit, a hunger for God to work His purposes in and through us, and a real daily dependence on Him. Rather than glorying in our own spiritual experiences, our past record, and even our reputation before people, may we, like Paul, embrace our weakness, and boast in God's power that has been able to do something with our lives in spite of who we are.
And as recipients of God's amazing grace, may we extend this same grace to the other imperfect people who live around us! May God's Grace and God's power characterise our lives.
Amen.

Possibly related posts from the past:
2. The Power of the Gospel
3. Everything you are in the world is of no value.....

Friday, October 31, 2014

"Post-birth Abortion"

(via Cranach)

"To many college students–many of whom have been required to read the pro-infanticide arguments of Princeton ethicist Peter Singer–children are not “self-aware” until they are 4 or 5 (have they never talked to a 4 or 5 year old?), and so it should be legal to kill them up to that point."

Welcome to the era of 'Post-Birth Abortion" :(

But then, isn't this just a logical extension of the idea that a living baby in the womb is not a person yet....

Possibly related posts from the past:

1. Open reply to M: Why abortion cannot be a matter of personal choice
2. Questions for Our Pro-Abortion Friends, Church Leaders, and Politicians
3. Accurate language for abortion